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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Hy-Gain 12AVQ
Thinking of getting one, new QTH means I need to be stealthy-ish. I'll be mounting on the ground.
Anyone got any views on performance ?

Rich


Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:24 pm
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
Even the most humble dipole will out-perform it. But if you really must, then the more buried copper under it the better.

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Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:48 pm
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
When I lived in New Zealand and operated as ZL1VL, I ran a Hustler 6BTV ground mounted vertical. I did comparisons on 20m between it and an inverted V dipole with its apex at 30ft. Sometimes the inverted V dipole was up on the Hustler on 20m by as much as 4 S units back into Europe and North America. In fact the inverted V was better at every distance.

The 12AVQ only covers 20,15 and 10m. With the present state of the sunspot cycle, you cannot expect too much on 10m and 15m. Even 20m can be quite poor at times. I would advise you to concentrate more on 30m and 40m over the next few years.

I have always found ground mounted verticals on 20-10m to be very much inferior to a good dipole up at say 30ft. If you do want something for 10,15 and 20m, then use a three band "fan" dipole or maybe a trap dipole for 20m and 15m with a 10m full sized one strapped under it. However, I do appreciate that this may have more visual impact than a vertical.

I also did comparisons with an elevated (base 6ft off the ground) 20m ground plane with 2 radials against the Hustler 6BTV and on average this was about 2 S points better than the ground mounted Hustler BUT still down on the inverted V by a couple of S units.

On 30m there seemed little difference between the Hustler and a 30m inverted V with its apex at 30ft. However, on 40m, the Hustler did at times show some advantage at DX over an inverted V. This is not surprising, since by the time one gets to 40m, a height of 30ft is only just under a 1/4 wavelength and this is not really high enough to obtain good low angle radiation.

If you must choose a vertical, then my advice would be to get one that offers 30m and 40m in addition to 20m to 10m coverage. However, you would still be better off with a 20m dipole (preferably straight horizontal if possible at say 30ft) if you want good performance on 20m.

I hope these comments are of some help.

The Hustler 6BTV is a well made vertical and gave satisfactory results on 30m and 40m. Forget 80m! bandwidth is too narrow and there are too many losses in the loading. Other verticals worth considering are the Butternut range. Although I have never used any, there do seem to be some good reports on eHam. I am sure others might also offer some advice on commercial verticals.

Another solution to consider might be to use a 30-40ft fibreglass telescopic vertical with a wire inside it and a remote auto ATU at its base. With a decent remote auto ATU (and good earth/radial system) it might tune it over all or a large number of bands. The telescopic fibreglass verticals are generally quite low profile too.

73's Vince G3TKN
(Waterlooville, Hampshire)

If one can site a HF vertical right next to salt water then this is a completely different matter, but in the average suburban location I would always advise a horizontal or inverted V dipole aerial for the bands 20m to 10m.


Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:53 pm
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
I had one for a while, back in the early 1970's.

The traps are quite high 'Q', so you need to decide whether to optimise it for either the CW or ssb end of the band.

I had mine up at 20ft with two radials for each band.

It worked ok, but in the broadside direction, a dipole would beat it hands-down.

In my experience, the best of the verticals was the Cushcraft R7. I had mine up at around 25ft, and it performed very well indeed. Much more braodband than the 12AVQ or 14AVQ.

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Dave


Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:54 pm
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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..... and with no WARCs or 40m daytime, you can forget weekends. :)

Except for digimodes, I suppose.

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Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:52 pm
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
Thanks for the replies guys. Bit more detail, I'm in a new build rented house ie. no trees etc. in the garden (yet) so a dipole at 30' is an absolute no go at present. as anything I do needs to be low key and any supporting mast would stick out like a sore thumb !
The loft is also a no go, have you seen the amount of insulation they put in a new build !
I operate data modes these days so get plenty of DX on 20/15 - I've been using mobile antennas on a ground spike as a bit of a test and had DX as far out as ZL this is vs EU only on my inverted L (6' vertical with the rest pegged to the top of the fence. My current view is that an inefficient vertical seems to work much better than a low down horizontal.
For 40m I'm planning helically winding onto a 7m fishing pole and sneaking it up when the sun goes down.

Rich


Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:51 am
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
Hello Rich,

You are to be congratulated on the results you have obtained. One of the great challenges of our hobby is to configure a suitable antenna when one is very limited in terms of what one can erect.

If dipoles or horizontal antennas are out of the question, then verticals are the way to go. You can probably improve your situation by burying as many radials as you can in the lawn. It is surprising how quickly the grass will grow over them and no one will ever know they were there!

Mobile whips are another good option as you have mentioned.

It is much better to experiment and meet the challenges that you face rather than just pull the plug and go QRT. Even a poor antenna is better than no antenna and of course if you use the weak signal digital modes such as FT8 it is amazing what can be worked.

I am sure others in a similar situation would be interested in how you get on so do keep us informed via this forum of your results.

Do you think you could get away with one of those 6.7m SOTA telescopic fibreglass verticals? If so, this could then be coupled to a remote auto ATU. I would think something of this length would be suitable for 40m to 10m operation depending on the model of remote auto ATU you use.

In addition to my main station, I run an Icom IC7300 with the remote Icom AH3 auto ATU for /P and /A operation. I find the AH3 extremely good in terms of being able to load up almost anything! I have also heard good reports about the SGC range of auto ATU's.

Keep up the good work and do report back and let us know how you are getting on.

73's Vince G3TKN (Waterlooville, Hampshire)


Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:03 pm
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
Why not try a BTV vertical as suggested above? 40m and 30m (and 20/15/10) from the same aerial / feedline, plus you can very easily add the two higher WARC bands for pence.
http://www.hamuniverse.com/kl7jr4btv1217mod.html

I've been using a BTV for 12 years and it's so much better than I expected.


Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:34 pm
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
G0HVQ wrote:
Why not try a BTV vertical as suggested above? 40m and 30m (and 20/15/10) from the same aerial / feedline, plus you can very easily add the two higher WARC bands for pence.
http://www.hamuniverse.com/kl7jr4btv1217mod.html

I've been using a BTV for 12 years and it's so much better than I expected.


just had a peek at the BTV4, think I'll give that a go instead as it adds 40m, thanks for the info.

Rich


Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:05 pm
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
I bet - after all that - that the 7m helical fishing pole will turn out to be your best antenna, and you'll wish you had stuck a remote auto-tuner at the bottom of it instead.

Maybe paired with a low-noise balanced receiving loop in your furry loft. :)

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Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:20 pm
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
I fully support Chris's comments. By using a SOTA pole 6.7m fibreglass vertical with wire run up it and remote tuner, ALL of the antenna will be radiating on every band. If for instance a Hustler 4BTV is used on say 20m, only the section below the trap will be doing the radiation.
The remote tuner will also get over the problem of narrow bandwidth as it should tune the vertical to any part of the band desired.
The 6.7m SOTA poles are very low profile and will have less visual impact than a trap vertical with its cylindrical traps.
Although I have never owned one, I have heard good reports about the SGC range of remote tuners. My experience is with an Icom AH3 remote tuner which interfaces with my Icom IC7300.
Lots of advice for you to consider there Rich!
73's Vince G3TKN (Waterlooville, Hampshire)


Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:58 am
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
I would recommend a cg-3000 auto atu with a fibreglass pole ....got one out here with me in Spain ...tunes loops , verticals, inverted l etc etc ...good for 200w

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Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:31 am
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
Whilst the pole + tuner will undoubtably work a bit better, it'll likely be more expensive and more complex (how are you going to power the remote tuner?). Second-hand BTVs can be picked up quite cheap: mine cost next-to-nothing as it has been over in the wind so had a bend in the lower tube, I just staightened it out and guyed it, and it's now been up for 10 years.

Your choice at the end of the day. The SGCs do work well, have used one in the past :good:


Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:09 pm
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
Thanks for all the replies so far.
What's about an external ATU in the shack ? My secondary setup consists of an IC7100 with an LDG IT-100, from experience it will match most stuff.
As I already have the kit and a pole I can try this at no cost. Couple of questions:

Would it be best to equally wind the wire over the whole length of the pole, 7m by the way ?
Whats the minimal radial set up I'd need ? I love putting loads of radials down but not in the winter, my plan would be a minimum of two 1/4 waves for each band but's whats the minimum to get things up and running for a reasonable test ?

Thanks

Rich


Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:23 am
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 Hy-Gain 12AVQ 
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Post Re: Hy-Gain 12AVQ
It's much better to have the ATU at the 'far' end of the coax, if you have it at the 'shack' end, then the coax will be running at whatever the vertical's impedance / SWR happens to be. That will cause much higher losses in the coax.

But if you want to try it just for the time being; then it follows the usual rule: 'short coax is better than long coax' and 'thick coax is better than thin coax'. :)

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Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:41 pm
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